SBB wants to kill sequrity systems in simulations.


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    From ChrisTrains


    Quote;


    "As the Stadler GTW mid-life update is now very close to release, I have to pass on some sad news. You may have read about this elsewhere in the TSC community, but recently SBB modified all the license agreements with developers of models for all train simulator games. I don’t know if anyone really knows what happened to cause them to do this, but the short version is this: for me to remain legal with my SBB license, I am now forbidden from including anything other than than the most basic driving functions, in and model that has anything to do with Swiss rail operators.

    This means no SIFA and no PZB, among other things. This does not just affect me. It has already affected Paul Mersel's TrainWorx, and is also going to affect all Swiss game content from other developers (for example Rivet Games) if it hasn't already.

    What this means for the GTW update is that the Thurbo GTW will have SIFA and PZB disabled in this release, and all future releases, until SBB reconsiders their position.

    This isn't anything to do with the use of the SBB brand, and SBB haven't made any public statement as to why they have made this decision.

    But the wording of the new license agreement has less to do with specific systems in the train, and more to do with a general requirement that someone cannot learn how to fully start and operate any train on the Swiss network, simply from a simulation game.

    Specifically they require that no information screens are accurate or functional (in terms of menus, buttons etc), and that only accelerating and braking be allowed by the players.

    Further than that, I'm not going to speculate the reasons why they have made these decisions.

    Realistically I only had two options. I could either comply with the updated SBB requirements, or I could remove the Thurbo GTW from the pack completely. While I understand this is disappointing to Swiss rail enthusiasts, there is nothing I can do about this, and no amount of comments, emails or support tickets will result in me re-activating these functions in the model. I have to comply with the terms of my SBB licensing agreement, or I could face legal action.

    All other versions of the GTW in the pack remain unaffected."



    Realistically; has anyone ever stolen a train and driven it with the knowledge of a simulation? I highly doubt it!!! After all there is so much more to driving a train than ZUB and Sifa. And there is a huge difference from using a keyboard to being at a Fahrpult. Also what’s stopping developers to make a DB BR 189 (or other trains that run on the Swiss network) with ZUB? That would be outside SBBs licencing anyway, so players could still drive with it. Just not on a SBB branded train.


    Also, in a time where train drivers are desperately in shortage, simulations is one of the things that actually recruits them. In light of that, the new policy from SBB seems counterproductive.

    Ich bin der Musikant mit Taschenrechner in der Hand.

    2 Mal editiert, zuletzt von Kim_olesen1 ()

    Danke 6

    There's a lot of conjecture about what happened to cause this but I can't discuss anything other than the new limits imposed on me by the amended license agreement :(

    It's not just Sifa / PZB. They really do not want anything other than acceleration and braking.

    I feel really bad for the Swiss community -I've spent a lot of time in Switzerland this year and I really start to get an appreciation for their trains. From my perspective, I can't "dodge" the issue by doing unbranded trains because I have an established history of the Thurbo GTW being in the pack. I did ask SBB about this and they basically said "it's obviously a Swiss version of the train, for Swiss routes, so no, that would not be acceptable".

    Zitat von Kim_olesen1

    "Realistically; has anyone ever stolen a train and driven it with the knowledge of a simulation? I highly doubt it!!! After all is so much more to driving a train than ZUB and Sifa. Also what’s stopping developers to make a DB BR 189 (or other trains that run on the Swiss network) with ZUB? That would be outside SBBs licencing anyway, so players could still drive with it. Just not on a SBB branded train."




    Zitat von tom87

    Jasper I was going to ask if this will also effect TSW.

    Yes, it will. All SBB vehicles in all simulation games. :(

    My German is non-existent - please be patient :whistling:

    4 Mal editiert, zuletzt von ChrisTrains () aus folgendem Grund: Merged a post created by ChrisTrains into this post.

    Danke 2 Schade 2

    ChrisTrains


    Theoretically, could you do a fictive repaint and sell that fully featured?


    Edit: you answered that already. A fictive 185 repaint or something like that, would that be a possibility?


    Anyway, this ofcourse is the death of Swiss train simming. Such a shame.

    Ich bin der Musikant mit Taschenrechner in der Hand.

    2 Mal editiert, zuletzt von Kim_olesen1 ()

    I think the people who decided it were neither train drivers nor aware of the implemented details in tsc and tsw. We have only a few locomotives with a realistic start up (nearly 90% of the real process). It's the same like ego shooters could form murders or soldiers.


    I have no swiss routes or swiss locomotives but after that i wouldn't buy anyway. Hoping SBB will be the only company with such an agreement or the tsc will be dead for me.

    Zitat von ChrisTrains

    I feel really bad for the Swiss community

    Yes, this is absolute disaster for them. Allthough there was never much swiss content in TS or TSW and thankfully all the scenic Rhb content is not affected (from what I´ve read). But it still sets a very scary precedent. Just imange DB or ÖBB doing this and the consequenses for the simulators? Just wow....


    PS: while your here Chris: a short reminder about the German version of NS 6400. I wrote you an Email a couple of months ago about it and you said, you would look into it.


    Zitat von domi5599

    Hoping SBB will be the only company with such an agreement or the tsc will be dead for me.

    Not so fast... not much payware for TSC these days anyway. Mostly freeware... and they can´t take away the collection on our harddrives.

    „Wer die Freiheit aufgibt um Sicherheit zu gewinnen, der wird am Ende beides verlieren.“
    Benjamin Franklin

    2 Mal editiert, zuletzt von tom87 ()

    Gefällt mir 1
    Zitat von tom87

    Just imange DB or ÖBB doing this and the consequenses for the simulators?

    One more reason to make backup copies of all rolling stock so that you don't have to resort to "broken patched" versions later.

    I would never buy trains without safety systems...this is hilarious.

    Keine Readme für den Support, der klar in den Dingen steht.


    - Viele Fehler...siehe Logmate -

    Einmal editiert, zuletzt von Broflugo ()

    Gefällt mir 4
    Zitat von tom87

    Mostly freeware...

    If the DB would copy the same licence agreement we would have only freeware/payware with private or fanatay liveries.



    I think the agreement is a dead end for the sbb. They gain literally nothing and if i were a swiss kid who wants to be train driver and play this new minimum (boring) swiss locomotives i can't hardly imagine that i still would want to be a train driver.

    Zitat von Kim_olesen1

    It would be the death of train simming.

    As said Kim, they can´t take the collections from our harddrives. Well, maybe... police raids on train simmers :D

    Could the even enforce this within freeware stuff?


    Zitat von domi5599

    If the DB would copy the same licence agreement we would have only freeware with private or fanatay liveries.

    I have all my DB locos from vR and others on my harddrive. Will they send the police to my house to remove it? I think for TSC it would not be the end of the world (at least not for oldschool players with huge collections)... but for starters and for Train Sim World it would be a disaster. People will just resort to piracy and fileshare all the branded stuff with working PZB. What a mess!

    „Wer die Freiheit aufgibt um Sicherheit zu gewinnen, der wird am Ende beides verlieren.“
    Benjamin Franklin

    2 Mal editiert, zuletzt von tom87 ()

    Well imagine this:


    TSW users just got their Luzern route DOWNGRADED from what they paid for. And yes that could absolutely happen with any content bought on steam. And everytime steam got allowed on the net, your content would be updated to a “simple control” version, and you would have to reainstal/mod the trains you want to drive after each update. Possible, but a nightmare.


    And i guess laws could be passed that forbade simulations to implement train protection systems.

    Ich bin der Musikant mit Taschenrechner in der Hand.

    Einmal editiert, zuletzt von Kim_olesen1 ()

    Zitat von Kim_olesen1

    TSW users just got their Luzern route DOWNGRADED from what they paid for.

    Payware creators will unfortunately talk their way out of this one... "well, it´s still a train and all that". No judge in the world would take this case or grant any players money back. People would be very angry and resort to piracy.

    Kim_olesen1 No, it´s not the fault of Payware folks. Customers and sellers are both badly effected by this. It´s a huge scandal in my view... maybe the biggest I´ve seen in train sim history.

    Funnily enough I worked for SBB for two years in the past.... never expected anything like this from them.

    „Wer die Freiheit aufgibt um Sicherheit zu gewinnen, der wird am Ende beides verlieren.“
    Benjamin Franklin

    2 Mal editiert, zuletzt von tom87 ()

    Gefällt mir 1

    I have directly contact with this position of SBB for my licenses. I hear something about guys, that entered some locos... Thats the reason why. But i heared too, that only new vehicles are affected? is this wrong?


    I have mean, that you don't have to downgrade any vehicles... But the logo or the CI is not the problem, the problem are some displays and starting scenes from the locomotives.

    Zitat von tom87

    Could the even enforce this within freeware stuff?

    Relies on the swiss civil code. If it's like german civil code so no common rule set for licence agreement than it's definitely possible. But you are still right they can't enforce us to downgrade are own copies. It's a little bit like confiscated games you can only shut down the sell and destroy all copies that weren't sold.


    B42 What if you change the displays and starting scenes that it's still be realistic but not enough to 'drive the real version'?

    I wonder if the two SBB addons i bought from Steam (the Gothard Bahn and the Lake Constance route) will be downgraded the next time i connect my TSC pc to the internet….


    The ZUB on these wasn’t good anyway. No braking curve or Frei Taste implemented, but still i would never use those again if it happened.

    Ich bin der Musikant mit Taschenrechner in der Hand.

    domi5599 for me this sets a very scary precedent. From a customers view: I buy a product for a train game, with certain liveries, features etc. advertised and whenever a train company turns around and decides to revoke these licenses, my content can be "downgraded" without a return of my money. This should be illegal. DTG/Rivet or whoever buys a license from SBB, makes a route like luzern and after a while SBB revokes these rights and paying customers get downgraded in a manner, we have not seen before. So, are SBB giving the money back to DTG so they can refund customers? I guess not ... I would love to know the legal situation from an expert. We have practicing lawyers in the community.